[NEED TESTING 2.5.0.2] Engines in the 1900s are significantly weaker than past

[raichuP]

Hi there,
 
I just noticed that in the new version of the game, engines are much more weaker compared to the last version.
Attachments are the same 80x80mm I2 engine, both designed at Jan 1904, with most sliders at their default position, emissions sliders all left, size sliders adjusted so that they have the same size. You can see that engine's output dropped to only 1kW, 35Nm from 5kW, 50Nm in version 2.4.

       

[Eric.B]

Bounty #59 Sub-Component Rating Range https://www.ventdev.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=3841

V2.4.0.0 and older, sub-components only had a single value that had to work from 1900 to 2020. The game now has a range of values, generally starting small and getting bigger over time. So, in short, you were using 1970s I2 engine technology in 1900 in version 2.4.0.0 and older. Now you are using 1904 I2 technology.


I do plan on doing a little bit of tweaking to these numbers, but they will always likely be weaker than 2.4.0.0 and older in early game years, and stronger in later game years.

If you have a long save game with lots of data, that will be helpful.

[Eric.B]

To give you an idea of real world numbers. 1904 Winton Two Cylinder had a 14.72 KW 4261cc engine. This comes out to 3.4 kW per Liter. Your engine is at 1.2 kW / L. Considering the size/sliders of the engines, Some changes need to be made to get you into the 2-3KW range. But it's a far cry from 5KW found in pre bounty #59 for default sliders.


To give you an idea of more 1904 inline 2 Cylinders:
1904 Knox Two-Cylinder, 4.5L 11.9KW. (2.65kW/L)
1904 Humber 8.5 hp Twin-Cylinder 1.3L 6.3 kW ( 4.84kW/L)
1904 Rolls-Royce 10 hp 1.8L 9 kW (5kW/L)

[24K_xyf]

Sohc seems too strong.

[raichuP]

Bounty #59 Sub-Component Rating Range https://www.ventdev.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=3841

V2.4.0.0 and older, sub-components only had a single value that had to work from 1900 to 2020. The game now has a range of values, generally starting small and getting bigger over time. So, in short, you were using 1970s I2 engine technology in 1900 in version 2.4.0.0 and older. Now you are using 1904 I2 technology.


I do plan on doing a little bit of tweaking to these numbers, but they will always likely be weaker than 2.4.0.0 and older in early game years, and stronger in later game years.

If you have a long save game with lots of data, that will be helpful.

I see. This makes sense, but they are still way too weak compared to similar-sized engines in real world. For example:
1904 Peugeot Type 57, 652cc 4kW single-cylinder, 6.13kW/L. 
1901 Fiat 8 HP, 1082cc 7.3kW two-cylinder, 6.75kW/L. 

I guess smaller engines at the time could produce somewhat higher power density. 

Unfortunately I lost my game saves while trying to migrate to a new hard drive, some screenshots from 1900s are the only things that survived

[raichuP]

I guess smaller engines at the time could produce somewhat higher power density. 

A counter point to myself: 1905 Peugeot Type 64 has a 1817cc two-cylinder engine which produces only 7.3kW. I suppose torque is the key difference here.

[AstraMeccanica]

Bounty #59 Sub-Component Rating Range https://www.ventdev.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=3841

V2.4.0.0 and older, sub-components only had a single value that had to work from 1900 to 2020. The game now has a range of values, generally starting small and getting bigger over time. So, in short, you were using 1970s I2 engine technology in 1900 in version 2.4.0.0 and older. Now you are using 1904 I2 technology.


I do plan on doing a little bit of tweaking to these numbers, but they will always likely be weaker than 2.4.0.0 and older in early game years, and stronger in later game years.

If you have a long save game with lots of data, that will be helpful.

I see. This makes sense, but they are still way too weak compared to similar-sized engines in real world. For example:
1904 Peugeot Type 57, 652cc 4kW single-cylinder, 6.13kW/L. 
1901 Fiat 8 HP, 1082cc 7.3kW two-cylinder, 6.75kW/L. 

I guess smaller engines at the time could produce somewhat higher power density. 

Unfortunately I lost my game saves while trying to migrate to a new hard drive, some screenshots from 1900s are the only things that survived

I'd agree, some technical solutions seems to be unpowered compared to how effective they were despite being relatively new.

[Eric.B]

Sohc seems too strong.

Amusingly, I have people complaining SOHC is too weak. https://www.reddit.com/r/GearCity/commen...dlc_v2501/

What I really need is people to plop down their long play save games so I can take the data from them and compare them to real world designs. And then combine all the data to see what I need to balance. But sadly, most people don't bother submitting their data when I ask them. :\



Anyway, I've made some adjustments:

• Double Wishbone, -15.6% to final braking, -14.3% to final comfort, -11.1% to final performance values.
  
• Multilinked Suspension, -18.8% to final design value
  
• Gasoline, +31.1% to starting power, +11.8% to starting RPM values
  
• E85, +6.7% to starting power, -2.9% to final power, +5.3% to starting RPM values
  
• DOHC, +6.25% to starting RPM value
  
• SOHC, +6.9% to starting RPM value
  
• Superchargers, +13.6% to starting power, +7.7% to starting fuel economy values
  
• Turbochargers, +7.6% to starting power, +2.65% to final power values
  
• Variable Geometry, +6.8% to starting power, +1.25% to final power values
  

I'm able to make the 1904 Humber 8.5 hp Twin-Cylinder 1.3L. And the:
1904 Rolls-Royce 10 hp 1.8L

Of course, neither are default slider positions. The Humber is a $430 design in the game. Which napkin math says it probably should cost about $900, which would be a sales price of $1100-$1800 in game. In the real world, these things were going for 255 Guineas https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im190...umber1.jpg Which comes out to about $1275 (Using an exchange of $5 GBP/USD)


I suspect SOHC and DOHC likely grow too fast, resulting in them being over powered later in the game.
None the less, boosting my skill to unlock SOHC in 1902, I'm able to duplicate the Marr's Single Cylinder 1.7L 6.5HP SOHC engine. Comes out to a $266 engine, So roughly $500-$600 for a full vehicle design. The real world sell price was planned to be $800. (But the factory burnt down, all inventory was lost and the company went bust.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marr_(auto...to-Car.jpg

Anyway, marking this thread as Fixed. I will be publishing the current ratings charts for sub-components and ask for more save games when I release 2.5.0.2.

[Eric.B]

That said, I will add that the game does have trouble duplicating large stroke engines like the Isotta Fraschini Tipo KM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotta_Fraschini_Tipo_KM

It seems Strokes this large is causing the RPMs to crater. I can only get 373RPMs out of the design, when it needs 1600RPMs.

Might be something to look at if we ever get any large/commercial engine vehicle types added to the game.

[Eric.B]

At 50 design skill, and 1 at all component skills. I am 26hp short of the Duesenberg Model J in 1931 (probably a little more short in 1927.)

Supercharger does provide a 29hp bump. approximately 26hp under historical.

So, that's something I need to look into before switching to other issues. I think the component skills might compensate for it.

[Eric.B]

Ran a test with 30 component skill points (across the board) and was able to match Duesenberg Model J numbers easily with minimal changes to the default advanced designer sliders. Superchargers had a 37hp bump, so still a tiny bit under powered.

The Tipo KM needs about 50 skill points to be able to hit its numbers, even after full slider adjustments. Still has an issue with massively undersquared engines in that time period.

Anyway, after doing that test, I feel a little better about my changes to the sub-components. Superchargers might need a tiny bit more boost. If anything, component skills might be over powered.

[24K_xyf]

During a previous play, I immediately started designing a new engine after unlocking SOHC. I found that the torque of the engine using SOHC was much greater than that using other valves. Additionally, this 2.7L 4-cylinder engine using SOHC had a torque of 191 Nm in naturally aspirated form and 192 Nm when using supercharging. I found this quite strange.

[24K_xyf]

Finally, I blindly built a bunch of powerful engines, and then found that no matter what, I couldn't build a gearbox that could withstand their torque. ?

[Eric.B]

During a previous play, I immediately started designing a new engine after unlocking SOHC. I found that the torque of the engine using SOHC was much greater than that using other valves. Additionally, this 2.7L 4-cylinder engine using SOHC had a torque of 191 Nm in naturally aspirated form and 192 Nm when using supercharging. I found this quite strange.

After v2.5.0.2, try to duplicate this again, and provide the save games.

I generally can only balance the game using the AI, and the AI is pseudo scripted to follow historical approach. In my own testing, I mainly focus on being able to recreate real life engines. The issue there is that there is typically a large extreme.

Finally, I blindly built a bunch of powerful engines, and then found that no matter what, I couldn't build a gearbox that could withstand their torque. ?

That is normal. Remember the game supports everything from lawn mower to diesel submarine engines. There is a tipping point where you won't be able to mate it to a gearbox without penalties.