How much access to engine types should we have?

[Arakash]

I was having a interesting discussion on IRC and i thought id get some more opinions on it.

What types of components, especially engines, do you think it is appropriate to have access to in early game?(1900-1910)

In older versions of the game, i was used to being limited to Straight engines usually 2-4 cylinders or Single Cylinders.
In the most recent version, i have access to 6 and 8 cylinders, as well as Straight, V engines and often more.

What do you think should be available to your average player in this timeframe?

I know very little of the history and technical of this timeframe, so i wont speak to that.
I can say that from a gameplay perspective, i think you should need to build components and perhaps do some research to get over 4 cylinders and anything other than Single/Straight engines.

[Tridon]

From my very subjective point of view, I would say that it is a bit much that i can make a V8 engine in 1900, concidering me and my engineers/researchers most probably aren't very experienced yet. Where the limits should go, I don't know. Maybe it should be tweakable in options (just to make all the more hell for our poor developer). I think V2 enginges existed even before 1900 and that V8 engines came not soon after, but I don't think they where available for cars.

Example of an arbitrary starting point:
single-sylinder
straight and flat up to 6 sylinders
U up to 6 or 8
V up to 2 or 4 sylinders
No H yet maybe?
No transversed engines or gearboxes

Or a realy harsh and somewhat unrealistic starting point:
single-sylinder
straight/flat up to 2 or 3 sylinders

I have no idea what is historical, but it's more likely that a company making engines and otherwise being experienced with mechanical engineering from the last 10-20 years could pull of making a large V8 in 1900, than we as newly started companies could.

[freeman2344]

Well, to me, this has always been somewhat problematic and I believe that the research system itself is to blame. In the early period of the autmobile, companies were experimenting with all kinds of wacky designs - there were no 'dos and dont's' yet. Therefore I don't like the idea of limiting the player in his choice. Who's to say that the player's company isn't one of those attempting to build an early V8? The first one for car use was built in 1904 IIRC.

The current 'research system', and I believe I have said this before, does not really live up to the rest of the game. It's too intransparent (designing components hoping that research will be progressed?) and there's practically no player control, which does not make for interesting game mechanics. In fact, until recently (when the research budget allocation was implemented) there was practically no involvement with research at all.

I realize that it's probably too far into the project to implement any drastic changes, but it's something that, to me, is probably the weakest point of an otherwise excellent simulation.

I would envision a system where players can select from a more-or-less 'free-flowing' research tree and allocate budgets to research projects, such as 'Experiment with new engine configuration' or 'Attempt to increase the number of cylinders'. Research progress would then depend on how difficult such a technology would have been to research at that point in time and the player's monetary investment (further modifiers could be added by the construction of research centers or purchasing university resources and the like). At some point, enough progress would be made to design a prototype. The player would then go on to design this new prototype in the engine designer - with a certain chance of the protoype failing depending on other factors (complexity of the design, etc.), which would cause the development cost for that prototype to be lost. The player would then be given the option of designing another prototype (maybe at a higher cost?), which would be more likely to succeed. After the prototyping stage has been successful, the player could then be given the option of modifying the engine for production (and thus have it ready at a lower cost and more quickly than would usually be the case). Such a research system, which would in fact be quite similar to a lot other games (especially the 4X genre), could, of course, provide any number of other gameplay benefits, such as research into 'Engine reliability' and the like.

Maybe that's something for the expansion. With the present system there's always going to be some sort of compromise.

[Arakash]

Arakash Edit: Cleared for space, read above to see the content of the post

Well my idea generally is that you would have several starting scenarios that would give you a specialization in a certain skillset.

So if, as you describe, you were one of the wacky outfits producing the first V8 for a commercial car, you could pick the scenario that gave your team specialized skills starting off.

I dont know if it would be a fair representation to have every single company allowed to build them in day 1.

I dont think ill go into a deep discussion on the mechanics of research here, it would definitely derail the entire post.
Perhaps you should start a new post on it?

[Tridon]

Well my idea generally is that you would have several starting scenarios that would give you a specialization in a certain skillset.

So if, as you describe, you were one of the wacky outfits producing the first V8 for a commercial car, you could pick the scenario that gave your team specialized skills starting off.

I dont know if it would be a fair representation to have every single company allowed to build them in day 1.

This is starting to sound really interesting. To be able to choose a set of starting skills sounds very fitting.

And freeman2344's ideas for changes to reasearch in general also sounds good to me (if I understood it correctly ofc), and would be fitting as an own suggestion for an expansion.

[RatAttack]

Why would you want it limited? If the game does not have built in ways to limit it then why should we not be able to build them?

If the game lets me build a V8 and fit in the same parts that a much smaller engine fits then there are other issues than just being able to build a V8 at a time when I should possibly not be making a V8.

The other thing is what time line do you go by if you want to just limit by a time line, if you look up the history of a certain car manufacturer that is just their time line. Every other car manufacturer has their own time line. So to me it only makes sense that we would be able to build our timeline.

I think the real issue research and design, instead of trying to explain it go download the demo for cars incorporated design a car in there and you will see what I am trying to say.

In cars incorporated when you design an engine you can improve some aspects of that for your next engine or a completely new engine. Here is a quote from wikipedia “The T engine was produced continuously from September 27, 1908, through August 4, 1941, exactly 12,000 days. This makes it one of the longest engines in series production, “

That is Ford's timeline for that engine, I can do that or have the sense of that in Cars Incorporated, I have no idea how to do that in Gear City. To me that is why the research part feels so disconnected.

[Eric.B]

In cars incorporated when you design an engine you can improve some aspects of that for your next engine or a completely new engine. Here is a quote from wikipedia “The T engine was produced continuously from September 27, 1908, through August 4, 1941, exactly 12,000 days. This makes it one of the longest engines in series production, “

That is Ford's timeline for that engine, I can do that or have the sense of that in Cars Incorporated, I have no idea how to do that in Gear City. To me that is why the research part feels so disconnected.

Modify buttons in the R&D department allow for continue refinement of a component. Nothing specific though, just a generic stat increase.

[Eric.B]

Forgot to add, nearly everything is changeable if we get to do an expansion, so any ideas are appreciated, specially if you guys feel that this is one of the weaker features of the game.

[RatAttack]

“Forgot to add, nearly everything is changeable if we get to do an expansion, so any ideas are appreciated, specially if you guys feel that this is one of the weaker features of the game. “

I have no idea if anything needs to be changed or not, that just my first take at his post. I know if I get a warning that my engine will not fit my chassis in GC because I tried that already.

---

“Modify buttons in the R&D department allow for continue refinement of a component. Nothing specific though, just a generic stat increase. “

Not to get to far off track but I found the modify button and spent 4,000,000 before I realized I even clicked on something.

[Eric.B]

Not to get to far off track but I found the modify button and spent 4,000,000 before I realized I even clicked on something.

Yea, there has been debate on if this is too high of a cost. I will probably get around to "fixing" it eventually.