Factory manager

[Frankschtaldt]

Thinking more about the automated factory discussed in this thread I thought rather than continuing to hijack that thread I'd start a new one to discuss it.

My new thinking regarding this is to have a factory manager as a position you can hire and you can hire one at each factory rather than having it as a single checkbox that takes control of all of your factories.

How this would work is by adjusting production for the factories where the managers are hired according to how many units are sold vs how many were made the previous turn. The player would still need too set the initial production level as the manager would only increase or decrease production of vehicles that were already being made.

So, for an example, the player has a factory in London and Berlin and has just released a new sedan. To try to make sure they have enough for the first months rush they set 5 lines at each factory to make the new Sedan. London being the black hole that it is swallows up all of its production and a little bit if Berlin's however the lower demand for vehicles elsewhere means that only half of the vehicles made in Berlin sell this month. Now, both factories have managers so as the last thing done that turn the London factory detects that it has sold everything it's made and decides to increase its production by adding another line to make the new Sedan, Berlin on the other hand only sold half what it made so it halves it's production rounding up to 3 lines.
Next month London still used it's entire production but because it made more it's self it took less off Berlin which means Berlin only sold half if it's newly reduced run. As such, London adds another line to keep up with demand and Berlin halves it's output (rounding up) to 2.
This would create a fairly realistic and dynamic automated system with a real cost to the player for taking the easy path (having to pay a factory manager).
The only real issue I can see with this is the player have to restart production of vehicles the manager shut down (if the player had more stock than what was sold in a month thus nothing the factory made sold that month). Perhaps some kind of "allow production" checkbox could be added that would allow the factory manager to start making something if the players other factories couldn't keep up with demand?

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Note: the reason I said the adjustment to production should be the last thing for a turn rather than the first thing based of the previous turn is so the player has the chance to over rule the factory managers decisions and not just have them automatically changed back as soon as the hit the clock.

[Arakash]

Thinking more about the automated factory discussed in this thread I thought rather than continuing to hijack that thread I'd start a new one to discuss it.

My new thinking regarding this is to have a factory manager as a position you can hire and you can hire one at each factory rather than having it as a single checkbox that takes control of all of your factories.

How this would work is by adjusting production for the factories where the managers are hired according to how many units are sold vs how many were made the previous turn. The player would still need too set the initial production level as the manager would only increase or decrease production of vehicles that were already being made.

So, for an example, the player has a factory in London and Berlin and has just released a new sedan. To try to make sure they have enough for the first months rush they set 5 lines at each factory to make the new Sedan. London being the black hole that it is swallows up all of its production and a little bit if Berlin's however the lower demand for vehicles elsewhere means that only half of the vehicles made in Berlin sell this month. Now, both factories have managers so as the last thing done that turn the London factory detects that it has sold everything it's made and decides to increase its production by adding another line to make the new Sedan, Berlin on the other hand only sold half what it made so it halves it's production rounding up to 3 lines.
Next month London still used it's entire production but because it made more it's self it took less off Berlin which means Berlin only sold half if it's newly reduced run. As such, London adds another line to keep up with demand and Berlin halves it's output (rounding up) to 2.
This would create a fairly realistic and dynamic automated system with a real cost to the player for taking the easy path (having to pay a factory manager).
The only real issue I can see with this is the player have to restart production of vehicles the manager shut down (if the player had more stock than what was sold in a month thus nothing the factory made sold that month). Perhaps some kind of "allow production" checkbox could be added that would allow the factory manager to start making something if the players other factories couldn't keep up with demand?

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Note: the reason I said the adjustment to production should be the last thing for a turn rather than the first thing based of the previous turn is so the player has the chance to over rule the factory managers decisions and not just have them automatically changed back as soon as the hit the clock.

Nicely said.
I can say that personally, i would really love to see Factory managers, as at the moment, i spend perhaps 30-50% of my time adjusting factory production numbers. (mostly from adjusting the production of several models over several factories every turn)
I wouldn't mind if i was taking important decisions every turn, such as attempting to stockpile cars for future production or something like that. Unfortunately, most of the time there is just a mild or extreme shift in sales numbers, which i am forced to manually compensate for or either lose out on sales or go bankrupt by producing too many.

As i did in that other thread, i should declare my bias towards these kinds of systems straight away The idea of giving the AI control of things is rarely popular, but i love two games that really do it and do it well, which are Distant Worlds(a space 4x game) and the Command ops(a heavy duty detailed wargame) series. Both of these games are highly detailed, but give you the option to automate large parts of the game and let you focus on the most important decisions.

Of the ideas you proposed, i especially like the mechanic that would dynamically adjust the number of vehicles produced across a small/medium sized area (Europe) based on where the vehicles are actually being sold.
I would still be happy with something less complex, that takes into account your average monthly sales numbers and tries to produce to keep a 1 month extra stockpile of vehicles (one month sales average over a year. Youve gone into some quality detail on this in this post as well as the other post in the other thread.
One thought i had was that we may not need to propose any new mechanics or type of mechanics at all, if the production AI from the AI companies can be brought into this.

I think a tickbox on each factory like you said sounds fine.
Clicking the tickbox would add that factory to the Factory Manager system, which would take decisions based on local and regional sales.
Of course you can always override it, if you dont agree with the way the AI has set it.

I dont think you necessarily have to punish the player for using it, as i think having a production manager fits well within the idea of Roleplaying a CEO and its also not going to be a huge ingame balance advantage.(The player is always going to be better than the ai at managing it anyway)

[Frankschtaldt]

Nicely said.

Thanks

I can say that personally, i would really love to see Factory managers, as at the moment, i spend perhaps 30-50% of my time adjusting factory production numbers. (mostly from adjusting the production of several models over several factories every turn)
I wouldn't mind if i was taking important decisions every turn, such as attempting to stockpile cars for future production or something like that. Unfortunately, most of the time there is just a mild or extreme shift in sales numbers, which i am forced to manually compensate for or either lose out on sales or go bankrupt by producing too many.

As i did in that other thread, i should declare my bias towards these kinds of systems straight away The idea of giving the AI control of things is rarely popular, but i love two games that really do it and do it well, which are Distant Worlds(a space 4x game) and the Command ops(a heavy duty detailed wargame) series. Both of these games are highly detailed, but give you the option to automate large parts of the game and let you focus on the most important decisions.

If the automated system is implemented well there's no reason for people to have a problem with it. If it's implemented in such a way that makes it something you have to use to be competitive then it's a real problem.
Thinking about this more today I was thinking I wouldn't mind seeing a couple more automated systems for optional use. For example, a marketing manager that you give some guidelines too (such as amount to spend per vehicle sold and some guidelines for what marketing styles to focus on) and let them adjust all your marketing spendings for you on the fly. That might be wanting a bit much though
However, the important thing for any automation like this to make it less efficient in some way than the player so using them remains totally optional. That's the main reason the system needs to make its decision based off the results of the previous turn because the player can't do any better!
Also, it needs to be possible to override the system (at least for a turn) without turning it off to let the players that use it still feel like they have an element of control of what's going on. This is why I suggested my example system adjust production levels as the last action for the turn rather than the first action.
There's obvious exceptions to these statements, such as the current system for hiring and setting wages which is just fine the way it is.

Of the ideas you proposed, i especially like the mechanic that would dynamically adjust the number of vehicles produced across a small/medium sized area (Europe) based on where the vehicles are actually being sold.
I would still be happy with something less complex, that takes into account your average monthly sales numbers and tries to produce to keep a 1 month extra stockpile of vehicles (one month sales average over a year. Youve gone into some quality detail on this in this post as well as the other post in the other thread.
One thought i had was that we may not need to propose any new mechanics or type of mechanics at all, if the production AI from the AI companies can be brought into this.

I think a tickbox on each factory like you said sounds fine.
Clicking the tickbox would add that factory to the Factory Manager system, which would take decisions based on local and regional sales.
Of course you can always override it, if you dont agree with the way the AI has set it.

I dont think you necessarily have to punish the player for using it, as i think having a production manager fits well within the idea of Roleplaying a CEO and its also not going to be a huge ingame balance advantage.(The player is always going to be better than the ai at managing it anyway)

That version is my favorite as well. It feels more accurate and realistic. My experience with factories is they tend to make their decisions in a bubble unless someone very high up (the player) steps in and tells them to do something different.
Just making whatever system the npcs use available to the players is an option but I fear it'll fall into the trap of becoming something the players have to use (or feel like they have too) in order to remain effective.
As for paying a factory manager. It's less about punishing the player for using it and more about keeping the system optional. The thing about the system I suggested is that it could potentially save the player a shed load of money but focusing production in the factories closest to where the sales are. There needs to be a cost to offset some of that to keep the system optional.

[Arakash]

If the automated system is implemented well there's no reason for people to have a problem with it.

Ive found people just do anyway. Many are uncomfortable with having part of whole of their game automated. This is just my personal opinion as a Gamer who has played and read about several games that use it.

I agree with you on adding other optional automation into the game, but i think production automation is a far more likely place it might actually be used. I dont think you can really add on optional automation options to most of the game at such a late stage, but perhaps in one area i think its more practical.

However, the important thing for any automation like this to make it less efficient in some way than the player so using them remains totally optional. That's the main reason the system needs to make its decision based off the results of the previous turn because the player can't do any better!

I dont think there is really any need to worry about giving people motivation not to use the system, by intentionally making it less effficent/cost etc.
AI is rarely able to achieve the exact same positive results as people and the vast majority of the time, if you have a really specific narrow idea of what you want, a person can do it better than an AI.
So using your comment, you said that

The thing about the system I suggested is that it could potentially save the player a shed load of money but focusing production in the factories closest to where the sales are.

I highly doubt it ever would. IMO you would be hard pressed to find an AI that is more efficient than a human manually micromanaging everything. (Unless its something extremely straightforward, which predicting sales and production numbers certainly isnt)

This is basically what happens in Distant Worlds (which i mentioned earlier).
All sections of the game can be automated, with a ton of choices on AI behaviour and the like, but if you look on the forums, you will find that most (probably all) people are of the opinion that a person micromanaging can do a better job. The idea really is that the AI is competent, but certainly not highly skilled.
I can give an example from my own games, where i start out with a lot of micromanagement, but when your empire becomes much larger, such massive micromanagement of colonization/construction etc becomes time consuming and tedious, so i leave it to the AI while i micromanage fleets/war.

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As an aside, we should discuss this on IRC it might be easier since our posts are getting very long

There is a link in my signature if your interested.

[Frankschtaldt]

I highly doubt it ever would. IMO you would be hard pressed to find an AI that is more efficient than a human manually micromanaging everything. (Unless its something extremely straightforward, which predicting sales and production numbers certainly isnt)

Okay, true that. I was more think of it from the point of view of someone who is happy to allow an automated system to manage their factories are significantly less likely to micromanage things to the degree that the suggested system would. That is, they would most likely (like me) focus in making sure enough cars were sold with only the vaguest of attention paid to making sure that production is kept as close as possible to where the sales are.
I keep my factories close to London and New York with one or two outliers to feed the more distant cities but I have no intention of carefully tallying up sales of each model in each city and then matching up each factories production to take full advantage of that information and I find it hard to believe you would find many players that would. Those few players that would happily spend 1-2 hours every turn micromanaging their factories to that degree would never use an automated system like the one I suggested because they could do it better. But, all the other mortal players like me would save a hell of a lot of money on freight using that factory manager I suggested.

Ive found people just do anyway.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
People will complain about including such systems you are 100% correct there. However, people will also complain if they are not
included!
Reading reviews on that Distant Woulds game and most of them (that I've seen anyway) list the automated systems as a positive and a few of them focus a bit on how well implemented they are.
At the end of the day it's a design choice Eric has to make. Most people (in my experience) will not stop playing a game because there is a feature in it they don't like as long as it's optional. They'll complain about it no end (good publicity I say!!) but but they'll play it. Compulsory features (either can't turn off or can't turn on. Either hard coded or simply perceived as compulsory) on the other hand WILL stop people playing if they get on their nerves enough.

[Arakash]

Those few players that would happily spend 1-2 hours every turn micromanaging their factories to that degree would never use an automated system like the one I suggested because they could do it better. But, all the other mortal players like me would save a hell of a lot of money on freight using that factory manager I suggested.

Thats a fair point and im certainly with you.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
People will complain about including such systems you are 100% correct there. However, people will also complain if they are not
included!
Reading reviews on that Distant Woulds game and most of them (that I've seen anyway) list the automated systems as a positive and a few of them focus a bit on how well implemented they are.
At the end of the day it's a design choice Eric has to make. Most people (in my experience) will not stop playing a game because there is a feature in it they don't like as long as it's optional. They'll complain about it no end (good publicity I say!!) but but they'll play it. Compulsory features (either can't turn off or can't turn on. Either hard coded or simply perceived as compulsory) on the other hand WILL stop people playing if they get on their nerves enough.

Distant Worlds is one of my favorite games, and while its expensive to get it and all its expansions, its extremely unique and i love it to bits Incase you couldn't tell
Even from a game development perspective i really love how they designed it, and their attempts to improve it(especially the UI) over time, which is why i tend to use it as an example when talking about game features.

You made a good point about people perhaps not stopping playing a game, but just being more loud in their complaining. Your probably right there, one of the difficulties is separating the features that discourage people from buying and the features that just make them whine loudly on the forum. As you point out, that kind of difficult determination is left up to the game designer.

[Frankschtaldt]

Distant Worlds is one of my favorite games, and while its expensive to get it and all its expansions

You can say that again! I was serious contemplating buying it until I saw the price. I'm surprised it's still so pricey considering how old it is.

[Arakash]

Distant Worlds is one of my favorite games, and while its expensive to get it and all its expansions

You can say that again! I was serious contemplating buying it until I saw the price. I'm surprised it's still so pricey considering how old it is.

Yeah, its been a consistent problem for most of their history, mainly due to their choice of publisher and their pricing policy. They don't even release demo's afaik, which is facepalm worthy. The forums are packed full of thread about all of it. (one on basically every forum page really)
I don't think it detracts from its use an an example, or reduces the quality of the game or its gameplay/development though.

Recently it sounds like a complete/combo version is coming up, which should be much more reasonable in pricing. (im hoping for something like $50 rather than the 90-100 it costs atm to pick up the game and all its expansions)
The saddest part of that is that the expansions bring a lot of improvement to the game and the UI.
If you've watched some LP's or read some reviews and like what you see, the cheapest you can do is $35 for the original.
If your lucky you could get it cheaper through one of their infrequent Christmas/holiday sales.

Anyway, my ranting about DW has derailed the thread I should follow my own advice and be more careful about that.

[Frankschtaldt]

LOL! Let's use this then. How do you think the DW devs would implement a factory manager in GC?

[Arakash]

LOL! Let's use this then. How do you think the DW devs would implement a factory manager in GC?

lol that would be one ridiculous genre crossing crossover